Jail time for Spanking

[daisydoc]

So this article was in this mornings Press Democrat. Comments?

Measure seeks to punish spanking
Bill would make state first to ban swatting of children under 4.
By Jim Sanders - Bee Capitol Bureau
Published 12:00 am PST Friday, January 19, 2007
Story appeared in MAIN NEWS section, Page A1

Print | E-Mail | Comments (22)

Spank your child, go to jail?

California would become the first state to explicitly ban spanking for children younger than 4 under legislation to be introduced next week.

Slapping, smacking, whacking or kicking also would be outlawed.

Assemblywoman Sally Lieber, a Mountain View Democrat who is crafting the measure, said corporal punishment victimizes helpless children and contributes to a society "addicted to violence."

"The only thing a child learns by being beaten is that it's OK to beat or dominate children or animals that are smaller," she said.

"To my mind, there's no amount of physical force that's appropriate on a child 3 years old or younger," Lieber said.

Critics blasted Lieber's proposal Thursday as silly and excessive, or "nanny government" that would step on parents' toes and force judges to decide whether a swat was a spank, a nudge, a push or a "love tap."

Assemblyman Bill Maze, R-Visalia, called the measure "absolutely outrageous."

"What do doctors do when a child is born?" Maze said, laughing. "They spank the child."

Assemblyman Ted Gaines, R-Roseville, said he doesn't condone abusive practices but that a little swat, judiciously applied, should be left to parents' discretion.

"If I was talking in church, I'd get thumped in the head with a prayer book once in a while," Gaines said. "It worked."

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has taken no position on the measure, press secretary Aaron McLear said.

In an interview with the San Jose Mercury News, Schwarzenegger, who said that he and his wife "never" spank their four children, hinted that he has concerns about how the bill could be enforced. "Is it that when you see someone spank a kid, you go and say, 'Can I see the birth certificate of the kid?' "

But Schwarzenegger also said that he understands the desire to "get rid of the physical, the brutal behavior that some parents have."

Critics noted that abusing a child, though not a simple swat, already is illegal and must be reported by doctors, social workers and others.

Lieber said her measure would make spanking a misdemeanor, subject to a maximum one-year jail term and $1,000 fine.

But Thomas Nazario, a University of San Francisco Law School professor who has helped develop the bill, said the goal is to change behavior -- not incarcerate parents or remove children from homes.

"My guess is that people would get a citation," Nazario said. "They might go to court and, as a result of that citation, have to take a parenting class."

There also is a possibility that criminal sanctions will be drop-ped, meaning the bill simply would serve notice that parents no longer could inflict pain on their children, he said.

Nazario, a specialist in civil and children's rights, said California law currently permits spanking by parents unless the degree of force is excessive or not age-appropriate.

Usually, the state doesn't intervene unless a parent "uses a closed fist, or creates a welt, or black-and-blue mark, breaks the skin or uses an (instrument) on the child," he said.

Lieber's anti-spanking proposal, for children under 4, targets youngsters who are "absolutely defenseless" and "can't really talk to anyone else about what's going on in their lives, Nazario said.

"They don't understand the connection between their conduct and the spanking," he said.

Teachers and child care workers already are banned from spanking, Lieber said.

"If a teacher can control 30-plus students by using voice control only, then a parent can do that in the home," she said.

Lieber said passage of her bill could prompt a supermarket shopper, for example, to approach a fellow shopper who is spanking a child and warn, "That's against the law in California."

But Sacramento County Sheriff John McGinness said such confrontations can be risky.

"I don't think that would necessarily be in the best interest of any of the parties," he said.

McGinness said that an anti-spanking law, if passed as a misdemeanor, could be enforced only by citizen's arrest or by a peace officer who witnessed the corporal punishment.

Critics said a spanking prohibition could spark a torrent of calls to overloaded law-enforcement and child protective agencies, but Lieber disagreed, saying problems didn't occur when corporal punishment was banned in schools.

Child behavior experts are divided on spanking as punishment.

For many years, the conventional wisdom in the early-childhood education community was that child spanking is unacceptable in all circumstances, said Kimberly Gordon Biddle, an associate professor of child development at California State University, Sacramento.

But during the past 10 years, research has indicated that a "light tap," accompanied by an explanation, can be effective in cases where toddlers are endangering themselves or others, she said.

Personally, she said, "I just think there are so many other alternatives out there that you don't need it."

Pedestrians contacted randomly Thursday in downtown Sacramento had mixed feelings.

"I'd say leave it to the parents," said Lupe De Leon, 63, of Tulare.

LaQuetta Copeland, 62, of Wilton said she likes the idea of protecting children but can envision a situation where a youngster is behaving dangerously and parents respond with a quick swat out of "fright or fear."

"I'd hate to see them in trouble," she said.

[becky]

wow this is a tough one. while i don't condone a parent or anyone for that matter beating a child i can see how outlawing simple spanking can be excessive and hard to enforce. Many of us were spanked as children, heck i even got the belt when i was older but i can also remember my father holding my younger brother the the ceiling to "scare him" while saying "you wanna see 2?" That was his way of disciplining his toddler.

On more than one occasion i have seen a mother spanking or even beating her baby with a shoe or another object and that in my opinion is child abuse.

This is a very tough subject and it will be interesting to see how it all turns out. I honestly don't see this passing though.

[LMS]

I think it's REDICULOUS.
I understand some people don't spank, and that's fine. But some kids *need* spanked. Id ont' mean that in a "kids deserve to be beat" way, but like Brendan for exmaple. Saying no. Time out. Raising my voice. Redirection. None of those things work on him. He's VERY strong willed (spirited, some might say) and sometimes he needs a pop in the butt to get his attention.
I *do* think any "swat" that leaves a mark (red, bruise, etc) is unacceptable. I'm just talking about, literally, a pop in the diaper to catch his attention so he hears me say "NO. what you are doing is bad adn you'll get in trouble for doing it". otherwise it's like talking to a damn brick wall. :hopmad
he's never been hurt. He's never cried (from pain) and his cries from timeout after the pop are always very dramatic and exxagerated ;)
I think there are so many TRUE child abusers, rapists, murderers out there that maybe they should stop trying to catch an otherwise good mom "in the act" and instead focus on actually saving a few beaten kids lives.
It would serve the state much better to impliment a phone number where anyone can call, any time of the day and get a social worker/peace officer on the phone THEN. That way if you are at walmart or WHATEVER and see a kid *really* being beaten, you can call and give them their information right then.
and the prospect of someone saying "that's illegal in california" is a crock.
You know what happens when an abuser is approached? They take it out on the kid. and that's when kids die.
When I was in High School I ran a group called the ophelia Project (some of you may have heard of it) and we did a lot of 'programs' but one was counselling middle school kids. They figuerd they'd be more honest with "big kids" than with adults. I actually had to call CPS on a girls dad b/c he punched THROUGH her bedroom door knowing she was standing on the other side, wouldn't let him in. Grabbed her hair and slammed her against the door repeatedly until she was almost unconsious. That wasn't a fun call to make. but it needed to be made. Do you rally think if i went to that guys house and said "did you know that's illegal in the state of pennsylvania" he would have stopped? Give me a break.

[becky]

thinking back to JR High i can remember we had an officer talk to us in class about abuse. I can even remember him saying that its okay to spank a child with an open hand but that is it, nothing else. It wasnt child abuse if a parent panked thier clind on the rear with an open hand, of course with out giving welts or bruises. His rational is that the amount of force it would take to injure a child by spanking with an object is far less than what would be needed to cause the amount of injury with an open hand.

I'm not sure why this stood out in my head but i can still see that man in our class room with his open hand saying that is was okay to be spanked but not beaten.

[alowe]

I think this is so ridiculous. What will it really accomplish? Obviously beating a child is already illegal and I think the majority of physical child abuse happens in private, but I have seen it in public. For me it is not so much about making the act illegal, but about taking away parents' rights. If I want to spank my child I am going to. This kind of thing really makes me mad.

[becky]

well said.

[colleen&Kail]

exactly what jackie said.........some kids just dont listen anymore and thats the only way to get their attention. when i was little i got spanked quit a bit and i turned out ok. lol

[Sara]

I think this is so ridiculous. What will it really accomplish? Obviously beating a child is already illegal and I think the majority of physical child abuse happens in private, but I have seen it in public. For me it is not so much about making the act illegal, but about taking away parents' rights. If I want to spank my child I am going to. This kind of thing really makes me mad.

I was going to say that. True abusers won't spank in public. They are more likely to hide it, all they have to do is look at their kid and the kid knows what will happen later behind closed doors.

What next? Citations for moms who bottle feed in public as some have compared that to child abuse? How about public indeciency for changing a diaper outdoors or breast feeding outdoors?

[LMS]

exactly what jackie said.........some kids just dont listen anymore and thats the only way to get their attention. when i was little i got spanked quit a bit and i turned out ok. lol
lemmi tell ya... Spanking and getting soap in my mouth did me well as a child :lol

[My3sonsplus1]

I think we need to be better about teaching parents new and old positive discipline (lots know no other way and spanking is their first and last strategy) but moreover supporting new and old parents alike so that they aren't turning to spanking at times of stress and rage and "at the end of their rope" so much by offering more parenting workshops, support groups, counseling sessions for parents dealing with depression etc that are affordable or free. I think that would be time and $ better spent.

[becky]

some kids need a spanking...heck i know mine do but that is usually a last resort and its not like i;m beating them. I agree that true abusers will hide it and beat the crap out of thier kids at home while though of us who are innocent in our actions will not. At the same time, i have seen mommas really beat thier kids in public, far more than is necessary which makes me question how bad the child is beaten at home if this is what they get in public.

[Lynette]

I dunno, I don't think parents can say they have the right to hit their kids just because they are the parents and they say so. Some of the things parents do to their kids as "punishment" would be consider battery if they did it to an adult who was their same size and able to defend themselves.

That being said, a single swat is not abuse especially on a diapered and clothed butt. Alaina has had a couple herself as a last resort but since we have had to work with her a lot about not hitting it would obviously be contradictory to her so it is pretty rare that we go there. IMO a spanking is a repeated blow to the tush, sometimes over the knee with your bare hand which I don't personally condone but it is *hardly* abuse when compared to the children who are verbally abused on a daily basis, molested, starved, beaten and broken and even killed at the hands of people who are supposed to love them. Go after those a-holes!

[becky]

oh ya, classes would be great especially for a momma like me who has a VERY STRONG WILLED child. she is good most of the time but when she lets her temper go full blast all i can do is duck and cover becuase everything in site is flying across the room. Usually to only help to end her tantrum is for daddy to come in and deal with her is his own daddy way.

[Marisa]

lemmi tell ya... Spanking and getting soap in my mouth did me well as a child :lol

I knew plenty of kids who got the soap! My parents never did, thank goodness. YUK!

The thing that kills me about this law is all the self-righteous ppl that will be on their phones in 2 seconds to call CPS or law enforcement to report child abuse that probably doesn't exist. And parents who would live in chaos for fear of "someone reporting them" so better not discipline the kids in public. What they *need* to focus this attention on is more staff, more resources, better policies for EXISTING child abuse prevention and protection services. My dh and I tried to call CPS on his sister for doing crank with her daughter in the room and they wanted *more proof* !!! WTF Do something about that instead!!!

[Lynette]

My dh and I tried to call CPS on his sister for doing crank with her daughter in the room and they wanted *more proof* !!! WTF Do something about that instead!!!

Yup, kinda like when I called the police AND CPS on the lady who was punching her kid while driving and no one would do anything :(

[KaisaG]

I think you make a good point, Lisa.

I think that we will most likely treat Baby Eman's discipline similar to what Jackie mentioned she does for B... basically... it will be a very last resort- and I would never, ever leave a mark on him.

My paternal grandfather was very abusive to his wife and children-- which carried on to my dad- although not to the same extent. As children we were spanked frequently and whipped with leather belts, etc. but back then it was still considered an OK thing to do... whereas if you did that today you'd be in jail.

[My3sonsplus1]

What they *need* to focus this attention on is more staff, more resources, better policies for EXISTING child abuse prevention and protection services.

Really! I had pretty bad ppd/ptsd (that was actually dxed as "normal stress" since I had 3 kids in 37 mo) after I had Ben and I am not proud to admit it but I made statements to my mother and to the shrink that I *insisted* on seeing myself because I knew something was wrong with me and I "needed help" that I "could see how Andrea Yates did what she did" and that I could envision drowning my children because life was so overwhelming, you get the drift. She was reluctant to do annnnything about it. I had to convince her I might need meds (and I don't "DO" meds) Irregardless of official diagnosis and putting a name to the "disorder" I may or may not have had I made clear statements that life as it was, "normal" or "abnormal" was not working for me and I had thoughts of harming the kids. Not one eyelash was batted, and I was *asking* for help. Her only suggestions were to get a mothers helper (but those cost $, that we didn't have) and get a better support system (ya think???? I really had no friends and our family despite being close distancewise found visiting to much of a hassle for them) I couldn't get to playgroups or pay the $60 a session for kindergymy type stuff once I got there anyhow. Point being I was a self claimed abuse *risk*. I have never harmed my children but I very well could have and no one in an "authority" position gave a rats ass.

[becky]

unfortunately incidents like this, "cries for help" often go unnoticed. I wish there were more outlets for moms out there that were easily accessible and didn't cost an arm and a leg.

[alowe]

I have a mom's group that I was going to where we would read different pareting books. One book was all about mom's and anger. It made some great points about spanking. The one I took from it was that it is each individual parent's choice, but it should never be done out of anger. If you are going to do it, do it, but not because you are so pissed you want to hit your child or to relieve that anger or make your rage disappear. Use it in situations where your child is putting themselves in harms way or times like Jackie was talking about, but not with the intention of hurting your child.

[LMS]

yeah, i totally agree on the "not in anger" thing.
If I'm REALLY upset or angry or feeling so stressed out, I put brendan in time out.
if it's just enough that i think i'll flip out, I put him in timeout for about 2 minutes and really calm myself down.
Sometimes I actually have had to put him in his crib and just leave him there for a few minutes while i calmed down in the living room. It was upsetting for him, and he was SOOOO freaking out when i went back to get him, but i knew that in the long run it was better than the alternative of me doing something i'd regret. (that hasn't happened since he was about 8 months old, though, so i dunno where i'd confine him to anymore now that he's in a toddler bed, LOL.)
When I spank it is *only* 1 pop on th ebutt. I think anytime it requires more than 1 pop, it's an agression thing, rather than a discepline thing. And if you have to hit repeatedly, obviously spanking isn't working for *that child* and it's time to find a different way to discepline.

Another HUGE thing we practice in our house is loving discepline.
After time out or a spanking, we ALWAYS make a point to give him a hug, tell him we love him and snuggle him. I don't want him to ever thing "well, i'll get put in timeout and mom is still mad"... I look at it as "he did his time. he got his punishment and it's over now"

[alowe]

I agree Lynette. It is not a parents right to beat your child, but I do think I should be able to give a light swat if I see fit and it does seem like this would be included in the bill. I do on occasion, but never in public. I am already afraid to do that for fear of what would happen.

[Lynette]

I have never harmed my children but I very well could have and no one in an "authority" position gave a rats ass.

Kinda like that mom who tossed her kids in the bay only hers was documented and she had been on meds before and they *still* didn't do anything. I think if a law like this were passed it would just be used to bludgeon parents with whenever the authorities felt like it.

[Lynette]

I am already afraid to do that for fear of what would happen.

And a law like this would just make it worse. Alaina has some amazing lungs and is not afraid to use them when she is mad. I cannot tell you how many times she goes off in the store and I have dozens of eyes watching me with CPS on speed dial because they just know she is being beaten. And what about the parents who don't discipline at ALL whose kids run out into the street or do other unsafe things, how often does the law get involved with them?

[becky]

I know this is an old post but i wonted to know if anyone ever found out if this law passed or not?

[Lorah]

This woman trying to get this passed has been at it for a while now... I remember seeing an interview with her last year and thinking she was OFF HER ROCKER! I swear she must have been truly abused and can't handle the idea of anything that might *hurt* even a little or something.

This law if it comes into play would be stupid!

I am of the mindset that no child ever deserves to be *hit*, but a slap on the hand to keep them from touching something hot, etc. is not at all the same at beating a child. imo! I'm all for makingusre there is not an ounce of angry behind the reason or actual spanking too.

From what I see, this will only hurt parenting, not help it. Child abuse is not a public thing anyway...so who is this *really* meant to help? Hmmmm

[TaivensMama]

I may be in the minority here but personally I wouldn't spank my kids because I have worked with kids for so many years and I was not "allowed" to hit them as a form of discipline so i have found plenty of other forms of discipline to use with my own kids.

[colleen&Kail]

From what I see, this will only hurt parenting, not help it. Child abuse is not a public thing anyway...so who is this *really* meant to help? Hmmmm

thats exactly how i see it, people who "abuse" their children dont do it in public for the most part. i will tap kails hand mroe then i spank him, and it works better then me tellignhim "no" at his age. he gets a warning then a tap.

[Lorah]

thats exactly how i see it, people who "abuse" their children dont do it in public for the most part. i will tap kails hand mroe then i spank him, and it works better then me tellignhim "no" at his age. he gets a warning then a tap.

Ya, I'm not a "spanker" per say, but if Mav is just going and going and going after something to touch it and it will hurt him and he just doesn't get the point any other way then I have tapped his hand...and let me tell you...a feather would have made more of a sensation lol.... I personally feel bad... its just not something*I* feel I can do, but I know that sometimes its just a way to get his attention..

Seasyn, I totally understand working with kids for years and not being allowed to spank or whatever (and I should say that I WOULD NEVER do it anyway with any child other than my own *IF* I even wanted/needed to). With the 15+ years in daycare and then more than that of babysitting and such for private families, 5 years of preschool, etc. etc. etc. I had the opportunity to learn and use so many other methods for discipline. There are SOOOO many things out there to use that never involve spanking and such.

But, I still think that making a law against it doesn't help those that I think this woman is intending to help...kwim?